Wednesday 3 October 2007

Ahmadinejad Meets Neturei Karta Rabbis

Originally published on 10/3/07, 11:57 AM, Eastern Daylight Time.
First, I invite you to view the video of Ahmadinejad's meeting with some Neturei Karta rabbis here.  You may find it somewhat disturbing but it is clearly something worth watching.

I have dealt before with the issue of members of Neturei Karta meeting with Ahmadinejad, specifically their attendance at that infamous conference at Tehran. My position is actually quite simple -- as far as I am concerned there is no justification for meeting with someone who wishes to attack Jews. Even if Neturei Karta has "all" the Torah arguments in the world to justify their theological positions including their view of Israel, in that the majority , the vast majority of Jews, even the vast majority of Torah Jews, do not share this view and those who oppose this mainstream Jewish view have declared a willingness to harm these Jews, there is no explanation for sitting with a sonei Yisrael, one committed to harming Jews.

Having said this, though, this video is the first time I have actually seem these members of Neturei Karta present their views, and opens new issues that demand investigation.

1) Eilu v'Eilu -- In the Sifkin Affair, people argued Eilu v'Eilu in the name of tolerance. Would these same people argue it in this case -- afterall are these NK people not making Torah arguments. But they do not invoke Eilu v'Eilu so why should we? Is that the way Eilu v'Eilu works? Do you know that Reform Judaism also invokes Eilu v'Eilu? Don't we still apply this concept in other cases while rejecting it in regard to Reform? Don't we apply and not apply Eilu v'Eilu? Is that not what these NK people are also doing? Eilu v'Eilu is a problematice concept and one cannot fully comprehend its depth and its difficulty until we confront situations like this one when we recognize that we have to be tolerant to other Torah positions but also understand that Torah tolerance still only works within certain parameters. Working out those parameters, and recognizing the possibility of arguments regarding those parameters For further insights on this topic see my various articles on the Slifkin Affair which are available in the Nishma website's Index to Commentaries.

2) Religion v.s. Nationalism -- If you follow the words of the NK spokesman, you truly see an aspect of the Jewish world that is often overlooked -- the difference between religiously motivated Jewish identity and nationally motivated Jewish identity. If you look at Islamic fundamentalists without a consideration of their anti-Israel stand, do you not find a group close to religious motivated Jewishness? There is a belief in One God. There is some semblance of a sexual morality albeit its actual manifestation is not in line with Jewish values even for the most right-wing Orthodox Jew (and more so for more liberal views within Orthodoxy). But think about this. In America, we are siding with the Christian fundamentalists against secularists but vis-a-vis Muslim fundamentalists we seem , to some extent, to find ourselves siding with secularists.
Israel is a major reason for our definitions of allegiance -- but think about what we would be thinking if Israel was not the issue. What you see in the video is one monotheist praising another monotheist against secularism. How do you respond to that? Is it not interesting that in so many ways we side with the secularists against monotheists? Is that not something to ponder? And what about this generic view of religion anyway? I find it also strange that Israel has drawn individuals closer to Christian fundamentalism. In any event viewing this video does also raise issues of our identity as well.

Questioning, investigating, analyzing should not be understood as in any way giving value. I find this video disturbing, period. But it is still worthwhile to contemplate.

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

Biblical chronology is riddled with inconsistencies. Don't read too much into them; you'll drive yourself crazy.

Anonymous said...

TV News report on last year's meeting between Ahmadinejad and NK, which led to their invitation to Teheran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xA1DbBAcOQ

Anonymous said...

Below is an excerpt from the Neturei Karta USA web page:

http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/mission.cfm


Neturei Karta International is dedicated to the propagation and clarification of Torah Judaism.

Its only loyalty is to G-d and His revelation.

One of the basics of Judaism is that we are a people in exile due to Divine decree.

Accordingly, we are opposed to the ideology of Zionism, a recent innovation, which seeks to force the end of exile. Our banishment from the Holy Land will end miraculously at a time when all mankind will unite in the brotherly service of the Creator.

In addition to condemning the central heresy of Zionism, we also reject its policy of aggression against all peoples. Today this cruelty manifests itself primarily in the brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. We proclaim that this inhuman policy is in violation of the Torah.

NKI seeks peace and reconciliation with all peoples and nations. This is especially needed in our relations towards the Islamic world where Zionism has for 53 years done so much to ruin Jewish - Muslim understanding.

We welcome the assistance of all men of good will and stand ready to assist all whose agenda coincides with ours.


A more detailed position is outlined here:
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm


Watch the police response to the NK's demonstration at Regavim in 2005. Nasty. Reminiscent of Amona.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA18Io9XpbY

NK's report on it here

Note: Though the above video is an Israeli TV news report, the added music and added graphics look like the work of antisemitic skinheads using this event for their own ends. Nonetheless, to appreciate the nature of the situation here, it needs to be seen (unless you can find a version of this report without the music, etc.)
Also, in watching this, people should understand that just because the police are insane doesn't mean that the NK are any less insane.

Rabbi Richard Wolpoe said...

I found the video appalling.

The only possible rationale I could fathom is that somehow the NK/Satmar Rabbis thought they could mitigate the suffering of Iranian Jews by "brown nosing" that latest in Persian Hamans. I'm not sure if sucking up to the "Hitlers" of the world ever works but I can understand that approach.

Again, I am not even certain that this was their motivation; I just cannot even process what I saw.

KT
RRW

Anonymous said...

Too much thinking again.

The NK's are a bunch of hatred-obsessed SOB's. Their so-called Torah viewpoints are simplistic, easily oveturned and not worth arguing against in the first place. They should be treated the same way rabid dogs are. There is no sense in granting them any more dignity than that.

As for the first post, please! Maybe Islam will be the future religion of the world when it
a) stops slaughtering its own adherent faster than it has managed to kill its enemies in the last few decades
b) stops genital mutliation of its women
c) achieves a literary rate in the double digits
d) realizes that oil money doesn't a civilized people make.

Anonymous said...

The NK people are clearly very silly, self-destructive, and don't understand the effects of their actions.
Nonetheless, they are Jews, and they seem to be nonviolent ones at that. Thus, I object to the Anonymous user who suggests that they be treated as rabid dogs.
It is appropriate to address crazy talk with rebuke, but not to advocate violence as a remedy for these people.

Second, the failings you point out about Islam are not so clearly attributable to Islam itself as to the cultural failings of a less civilised part of the world.

If Christianity had not had to deal with the reformation, counter-reformation, the Enlightenment, and the separation of Church and State, they would be just as dangerous as they were during the Inquisition. The Islamic world is at an earlier stage of development, and we live in a time that is affected by this. Judging by how things normally happen, it will be centuries of war and blood before undemocratic unenlightened societies mature to the point that we have in the West, at least in terms of the role of religion in political affairs. (And here, too, there is still a long way to go.)

Today, we have only a few examples of good statemanship in the Muslim world, but over time, b"h, this will improve. Muslims have yet to really begin computing the interactions between religion and politics and culture, and I think that what we are seeing here may be the growing pains of their own version of the Enlightenment.

One way or another, we'll know in a few hundred years.

Anonymous said...


Just found a video of the 2005 cemetary protest without the dubbed metal music.


See also: this video of police arresting suspect in Satmar shul.
The NK's version of events is here.

A different version of events, at haaretz.com, is here. The timeline of who did what when is unclear, though. A lot of the news pages from 2 years ago seem to be gone. Google seems to have reduced their storehouse of free cached versions of old news stories.

The main thing, though, is that we can see that there's not a lot of love between these groups. And the Satmar are not exactly pacifists, simply making the classic errors of the pacifist, as I had previously assumed.

These past conflicts between Satmar and the state of Israel are critical to understanding their reaching out to make friends with Ahmadinejad.

I believe that Satmar Jews no longer feel that they are part of the Jewish world, and this has impacted their sense of allegiance to other Jews. The increasing strain in relations between Satmar (and other haredim) and the State has served only to isolate and essentially reject them from the corpus of Am Yisroel. The only way to mend this rift and stop the destructive behaviour is to reach out to them and bring them back, rather than treating them like "rabid dogs".

Perhaps we need a Kiruv movement designed specifically for Satmar.

Anonymous said...

There are so many errors in your postings, I hardly know where to begin.

Yes, there's theold canard: Christianisty had a reformation but Islam didn't. But it's not true. In fact, Islam's reformation came very early on. While Christian Europe was still wallowing in the Dark Ages, the Muslims were giving the world algebra, geometry, philosophy, medicine and science.

What some people don't realize, however, is that its been all downhill since then.

Cultural failings of a less civilized part of the world? Then explain why the majority of rapes reported in the last few years in civilized Denmark were committed by Muslims? Why did Muslim youths riot for days on the outskirts of civilized Paris not so long ago? Frankly, why is that part of the world a cultural failure and less civilized in the first place? It isn't because of the water, sir. It's because of the inhabitants.

Finally, you should know the Satmars and Neturei Karta are not the same and any Satmar will be happy to confirm that. Satmars, while they do hate the State of Israel and its supporters, quietly feel a connection to the rest of Am Yisrael, although they think most of us are either retarded or completely off the derech.

The Neturei Karta, on the other hand, are a violent bunch given to rioting, throwing stones at cars on Shabbos and assualting women who wander near their neighbourhoods wearing "inappropriate" dress. And as for being cut off from the Jewish people, they think they are the Jew people and we're the goyim.

Good luck with your kiruv shack. Bring a book to read. You'll need something to pass the time.